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Post by alibev on Oct 6, 2023 12:36:47 GMT
Ok it did work perfectly fairly recently but now my 250 won't start. Fresh fuel and good spark. It may be fuel/air related but before I even get to that the starter seems to be playing up. I thought that my battery was past its best so I bought a new one, had it filled and fully charged. The results are the same as the old battery. On pressing the start button it turns the engine very slowly and after a couple of tries the battery gives up. I cleaned the starter motor cable connector and the same for the battery cables and I think that improved it slightly. However, it just doesn't sound as if it is spinning the engine quick enough. I do remember with the old battery it would spin quite fast and I could try at least 4 or 5 starts before the battery drained. Is it worth replacing the starter motor or should I be looking elsewhere? Many thanks.
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Post by buster on Oct 6, 2023 13:01:15 GMT
a quick test is to take the thick cable off the solenoid that runs to the starter motor, its conveniently near the battery, and touch it firmly to the live on the battery (make sure your in neutral) be careful only to hold insulated wire, I dont want anyone getting a shock from my dodgy tricks. see how the starter motor behaves then. if it spins fast with plenty of power then its probably time for a new solenoid, if its still sluggish then its probably time for new starter motor brushes.
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Post by duffer on Oct 6, 2023 14:07:46 GMT
Everything Buster said, and look out for rust that may have formed where the battery is earthed to the frame.
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Post by alibev on Oct 6, 2023 16:00:43 GMT
Everything Buster said, and look out for rust that may have formed where the battery is earthed to the frame. Thank you. A couple of tests even I can manage. I will be careful to remain insulated!!!!
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Post by johnfcbn44dx on Oct 6, 2023 20:50:28 GMT
That top engine mount bolt main earth caused sluggish starting performance on my NC (after fitting its new Atom battery) The frame had been powder coated, Since the guy that rebuilt it just chucked the old bolts back in. Rust had built up on the bit that was making contact. Buffed the frame under the bolt / nut positions, and put copper washers against the frame either side and then put everything back with a new bolt and nut. (Perhaps only one copper washer with a Honda bolt) on my CB400N, when I got it, the earth was bolted at frame behind the battery box position. No harm in having a second earth from the battery negative, as long as the main earth is contacting ( to avoid a fuse wire effect on the secondary earth)
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Post by alibev on Oct 7, 2023 10:01:38 GMT
Thanks for all of the advice. So far I have cleaned all of the earthing points but still much the same. I was too scared to bypass the solenoid directly to the battery so I bought a new solenoid but results still the same. It is a cheap one which may be a problem in itself but thought it worth just for test purposes. Now I am thinking of replacing the starter motor if I can find one that will fit. Finally, I did eventually find the black and white wire on the CDI unit to isolate the run switch but as I am getting a spark that at least means the switch is ok.
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Post by johnjones on Oct 7, 2023 10:42:53 GMT
Hi Ali bev,
So new battery filled with the acid pack ( not just distilled/deionised water ), charged and fitted.
I assume it was the correct battery ? What's the battery number ?
All earth's cleaned including the earth where the starter motor is bolted to the engine ?
Paint is a good insulator.
You have a digital multimeter meter, even a cheapo one ?
Before using that, the thick black wire connection at the starter motor, on a cold engine, operate the starter motor for say 3 to 4 seconds, does that connection get warmer than warn, hot ?
Get a cheapo 10mm open ended spanner. Grind down the jaws to make them thin enough to slide onto the lower nut involved with the thick black wire connection.
Holding the lower nut and the thick black wire, undo the upper nut to remove the black wire.
This is to help prevent the terminal post rotating and buggering the posts internal connection, a disaster.
You may have to insert a suitable lever between starter motor "snout/nose" and engine, to free the motor snout in the engine, once the two starter motor bolts have been removed. A "wiggle" of the motor may free it if it's not "corroded/stuck" in place.
Brushes are available for these starter motors but that means stripping the motor down.
See CMSNL.com Exploded view.
Also research new starter motor screws that hold the motor together.
CMSNL for the exploded views, print them off, and davidsilverspares for the parts If needed/in stock.
Make that thin 10mm spanner....
Did the black wire connection get warmer than warn, hot ?
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Post by alibev on Oct 7, 2023 11:55:42 GMT
The battery is a YB12A-A and unfortunately I don't know how it was filled. I took it to my local motorcycle shop and they filled it with something and charged it. I have the battery supplied with the bike and results are the same when using it.
Most of the earth connections have been cleaned. I haven't yet managed to get the bolt out that holds the earth from the battery off. I feel that every time I touch something I end up with another problem but at least I can handle a stuck bolt.
I have a digital multimeter. When operating the starter as you suggested the cable remains cold, even after a couple of applications. I took the starter motor off fairly easily and checked for any obvious corrosion. I don't fancy disassembling it as the various screws look quite corroded. I will keep looking for a new one. Black wire remained cold.
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Post by BritPete on Oct 7, 2023 12:42:09 GMT
In terms of stripping the starter motor it is straight forward providing you can get the 2 long outside bolts undone
If not cut them In the middle - I got a new pair from ebay
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Post by alibev on Oct 7, 2023 13:10:41 GMT
In terms of stripping the starter motor it is straight forward providing you can get the 2 long outside bolts undone If not cut them In the middle - I got a new pair from ebay Thanks that is reassuring. I am just nervous of finding other horrors inside. So will look for a new one as not only should it work but it will save me an awful lot of time.
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Post by johnfcbn44dx on Oct 7, 2023 13:13:15 GMT
One thing to watch out is not putting much torque on the starter motor cable securing stud. It can rotate and shear the electrical connections internally. (Still got one like that to fix.
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Post by johnjones on Oct 7, 2023 13:23:27 GMT
As Brit Pete says....chewed up screw heads etc., Cut the screws When you have sourced some new ones....deal with the screwed in ends individually using a bench vise and a little heat on alloy casting if needed... Did you print off the starter motor exploded view ? Starter motor terminal get warmer than warn, hot, the terminal and post ?? That battery sounds correct and will have plenty of " omph" with reserve to spare. Get a cheapo hydrometer and check electrolyte ( the battery liquid ) specific gravity ( relative density these days ), it is it should be ACIDIC, sulphuric acid/distilled water mixture so be carefull, it burns. If battery was filled with just distilled water you have a problem. Your digital multimeter meter.... With battery on bike, ignition off, set meter to DC volts, say 20 volts DC, place proves on battery terminals, what does meter say ? 13.2 volts for a fully charged battery. Ditto but ignition on, meter says 12.5 volts now ? Ditto but with starter motor spinning, over 10 volts reading now ? Feedback on meter readings... There are other tests a multi meter will perform but basic test above first..... The main frame earth, does that terminal get warmer than warn when starter is used ? A bad connection involved with heavy loads like the starter motor can get hot, some even glowing red hot..... We await your voltage readings feedback. Your meter has an ammeter function but fused for 10amps ? You have access to car jump leads Could you post a vidio/audio of starter motor working Make that 10mm spanner.....
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Post by johnjones on Oct 7, 2023 13:29:14 GMT
A new starter motor is how much ?? An eBay one with a guarantee is how much ? Old bikes are a learning experience, so you learn stuff, and fix stuff, rather than a "cheque book" fix/experience. A New bike is how much.....?
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Post by BritPete on Oct 7, 2023 14:48:16 GMT
I agree with JJ, there is a faulty not working starter on eBay and they want £40 for it (IMHO worth a fiver for spares)
You could spend on buying another and the same could happen in a couple of months
if you can’t find the bolts you can work round with some studded bar and some nuts - Screwfix B&Q ebay
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Post by BritPete on Oct 7, 2023 14:57:42 GMT
I think these will do as replacement bolts but check yours first
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