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Post by alibev on Oct 7, 2023 16:17:04 GMT
Latest update. I will get the required gadget to check the specific gravity of the battery tomorrow. In the interim my fingers are crossed that they didn't fill it with water! Using the multimeter I recorded the following readings; 13.26 volts for a fully charged battery 12.57 volts with the ignition on though it took a while to drop to that level 9.98 volts when operating the starter My multimeter does not have an ammeter function as far as I can tell I managed to remove the bolt for the main frame earth and gave that a good clean. It remains cold when attempting to start the engine. I have access to car jump leads and a car. Audio file of starter motor in action attached. Honda cb250n starter.m4a (54.38 KB)
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Post by johnjones on Oct 7, 2023 18:10:04 GMT
For a new battery that starter motor is not whizzing the engine over fast enough, very slow indeed. Below 10 volts across battery is not good for a new battery. Main earth connection to frame now clean, bright and tight, an not getting even off cold when cranking is good. Again, does connection to starter motor terminal post and lead connection remain cold when cranking ? The starter motors earth is via the end plate and the two bolts, do they get warm when cranking ? Any paint between starter end plate and crankcase ? New battery terminals clean, bright and tight ?Thick black leads connection to solenoid clean, bright and tight ? I assume there is no movement in the starter motor components ( end plate, main body and snout/nose ) due to loose screws, when the starter motor is working ? So, hydrometer, about £1.50, get two, one just for battery servicing ONLY, the other one for brake fluid ONLY. The brake fluid only one will come in really handy for "sucking empty" the brake fluid reservoir, and, aid in flushing all the black crap sitting below the master cylinder reservoir plastic floor, via the two holes. A section of suitable round plastic drain pipe for safe storage. The battery hydrometer, remove the yellow plastic cell caps. Insert hydrometer spout having compressed the end "bulb", relax bulb and suck up sufficient electrolyte ( acid ) to allow the float to float. Read off the scale, in the green, fully charged, about 1250 Squeeze bulb so electrolyte goes back into its cell. Refit cap. Notice max/minutes level lines. Top up battery with distilled/deionised water, nothing else. DO NOT use tap water or rain water which will both MURDER a lead acid battery. Remember electrolyte is an ACID and will dissolve everything including skin. If spilled, use large amount of water to kill/wash away acid. Back in a bit...
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Post by johnjones on Oct 7, 2023 19:02:00 GMT
Don't know why that glumb face appears ?
There are a couple of resistance checks you could do as well as voltage drop tests involved with the starter motor circuit, but if no high load connection us getting off cold/warm during cranking, then no real need.....however....
So,ignition switch off.
Meter set to 20volt DC...
A. check voltage across battery fully charged, 13.2 ish
B. Meter red lead to Battery positive ( the batteries lead terminal post), black lead to starter motor Alloy end plate, 13.2 volts, same as across battery terminal posts. If 13.2, excellent.
C. Meter red lead to solenoid terminal post, the post that connects to battery positive, meter black lead to starter alloy end plate, 13.2 volts, excellent.
Tests A, B and C check battery voltage a two different actual locations on the bike, but electrically, are the same places effectively. This is a no load test.
D. You will need an assistant. Meter red lead to solenoid starter motor terminal post, black lead to starter alloy end plate, ignition on, operate starter, read meter, about 10 volts ?
E. You will need an assistant. Red meter lead to starter motor terminal post, black lead to alloy end plate, operate starter motor, read meter, voltage same as E ?
In D and E, you are checking voltages seen at the terminal posts in a loaded condition. Voltages seen should be same as/extremely close to voltage seen across battery during cranking, 10volts ( 9.9ish in your first test ).
You are eliminating possible bad connections in the circuit as you go along, in a logical methodical and relatively quick way, rather than flitting about in a random way.
If all tests check out ok, the thing left over us the Starter motor itself, or a poor battery.
Do you have access to a good fully charged battery that is not fitted to a car ?
Anyways, read all above and do the tests recording the results.
Battery electrolyte sg ?
Make that spanner, print off the starter motor exploded view, research brushes and screws....
If/when you decide to remove and strip the starter motor, find the small thin "lines" which aide correct motor reassembly...
Take your time, take pictures, be methodical but most of all ENJOY....
Ps, do not touch anything metal with your fingers etc. when using your meter as your touch can influence readings, and it's good practise for later....you will ONLY be using your meter on your bike, NOT on a car and no where near an ELECTRIC CAR that has LETHAL VOLTAGES !!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by johnjones on Oct 7, 2023 19:28:14 GMT
Lots of stuff to read, inwardly digest and act on....
I don't have your bike in front of me so can only assume that when you checked for HT spark with plugs out, that no liquid petrol or mist came out of the spark plug holes, no pool of petrol below the engine on the floor and that the engine oil is at the correct level.....
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Post by buster on Oct 8, 2023 10:51:49 GMT
if it turns out to be your starter motor, you can have this one for £10 plus postage if you also send me your old one (so I can rebuild it and keep it as a bolt on spare). this one works and the screws undo should you ever need to get into it
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Post by johnjones on Oct 8, 2023 12:40:29 GMT
Nice one buster, I bet it's had more than a clean up, paint and new screws ?
You have the washers and lower nut for the terminal post ?
Probably a real bargain compared to an unknown eBay unit !
Maybe no guarantee for that price but buster has a good reputation to protect on here and elsewhere.
Nice one buster. 👍
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Post by johnjones on Oct 8, 2023 12:53:48 GMT
Hi Ali bev, See above... So, make that spanner to protect the terminal post when you remove the starter cable. How are checks going ? One final test using a none fitted car battery and your jump leads... Disconnect bike battery. Car battery jump leads from car battery, negative to engine/starter motor end plate, earth. Positive to starter motor terminal post ( all other metal on starter motor is EARTH so don't touch positive lead to anywhere else but the terminal post !!!!! ), Expect some sparks. Motor should immediately work at least 3 times the speed in vidio. If it doesn't then starter motor has an internal problem. Take it off, strip and show pictures. Has the motor got engine oil in it ? Brushes worn out ? Com bad, evidence of armature rubbing on field magnets ? Pictures pictures pictures... Hydrometer readings ??
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Post by alibev on Oct 10, 2023 15:44:19 GMT
Yet another update, thank you for your patience. I bought a hydrometer as suggested which arrived Sunday. Unfortunately, the blister packaging got the better of me and I dropped it, shattering it into many pieces. Bought two new ones today and discovered that the tube would not fit into the old battery! No problem with fitment on the new battery but it not draw enough fluid to float the bulb. Noticed that the electrolyte was hovering just above minimum so filled with de-ionised water and charged. On testing the result was 1.20 which was at the bottom of the red line. So I have either 1) destroyed the battery with constant cycle of discharge and recharge, 2) David Silver sold me a dud battery, 3)The motorcycle shop filled it with water or 4) A combination of all of the above. So I will buy a new battery and if anyone cn recommend one that is good at starting recalcitrant bikes I am all ears.
I once again cleaned and checked all of the major electrical connections. I can confirm that they are spotless with no paint under any of the metal to metal contact points. Same also applies to the starter motor and I also used a flat 10mm spanner to hold the starter motor post while tightening that connection. The result is a possible marginal improvement but certainly nothing material. Buster thanks for the offer of a starter motor. I have ordered bolts for mine and when they arrive next week I will open it up and see what state it is in. Pictures to follow.
I completed the resistance tests as suggested below. All were ok and within the voltages indicated except test D (solenoid starter motor terminal post to starter alloy end plate) which showed 9.8/9.9 volts, the same as voltage across battery when cranking.
I haven't tried anything with another battery or bypassing the solenoid as I don't think I can handle sparks at the moment!
Engine oil at the right level and I had another look at the spark plugs and they look good. When testing the spark plugs for a spark I can conform that no petrol or mist was ejected from the engine and there was no petrol dripping under the engine.
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Post by johnjones on Oct 11, 2023 8:49:19 GMT
Hi alive,
New battery....
I am money poor ( relatively speaking ) so have to get as much bang for my buck as possible.
The last time I bought a new battery was about September last year.
I took advantage of the M and P offer of free carriage for orders over what ever it was and purchased 2 of the cheapest batteries ( lead acid ) suitable for an SD. They come with an acid pack.
I will hobble ( extremely bad back pain, I will make some crutches whilst I am down there ) down to the shed for battery make but from memory I think they were UK made, about £30 each.
I would thoroughly recommend these batteries. Bike not much used since fitting the new battery. Started up once since April 8th this year, so ideally battery was in need of a service, top up check and refresher charge. It got niether. Sd started up strongly after 2 compressions, no problem with battery. Sd lives outside in all weathers...
Back later...
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Post by johnjones on Oct 11, 2023 9:11:16 GMT
M and p.co.uk Swansea
Orders over £25 carriage free
They have been "improving" the website again, just does not work on an internet phone here but we do have extremely poor internet .....
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Post by alibev on Oct 11, 2023 9:57:16 GMT
M and p.co.uk Swansea Orders over £25 carriage free They have been "improving" the website again, just does not work on an internet phone here but we do have extremely poor internet ..... Thank you Johnjones. I have ordered a new battery which should arrive tomorrow. Will charge that and see what happens. Will report back on due course
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Post by alibev on Oct 12, 2023 16:27:35 GMT
M and p.co.uk Swansea Orders over £25 carriage free They have been "improving" the website again, just does not work on an internet phone here but we do have extremely poor internet ..... Thank you Johnjones. I have ordered a new battery which should arrive tomorrow. Will charge that and see what happens. Will report back on due course New battery arrived today. Fully charged it and connected to bike. The starter now runs much quicker than before but only manages two long attempts (5-10 seconds) before the battery begins to object. Unfortunately, not a hint of any combustion.
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Post by johnjones on Oct 14, 2023 13:39:55 GMT
Hi Ali bev,
Could you post a picture of the new battery please and it's number, also a video with audio to show how fast it whizzed the engine over no please.
Use starter for 5 second bursts, then wait 30 seconds for battery to "recover" and starter to cool down a bit.
With a 5 second bursts, check starter motor terminal for heat, also starter motor body for heat, as well as earth points for heat.
You say you know HT ignition system is producing a good spark.
How please ?
Are you using a pair of those red neons plug caps like seen in picture below ?
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Post by johnjones on Oct 14, 2023 13:41:49 GMT
Ah, seems I cannot post a picture....
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Post by shuttlespanker on Oct 14, 2023 14:38:38 GMT
Ah, seems I cannot post a picture.... Silly question, you are on desktop version when trying to post pictures?
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